I have altered rest of the Old Testament to the rest of the deutrocanonical books, as that is what I think is meant. The publication of the Vulgate was, in fact, a sign that Latin was making a comeback. Following the Renaissance, a common opinion among some humanists was that the LXX translators bungled the translation from the Hebrew and that the LXX became more corrupt with time. --Wetman 20:18, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC). The Masoretic text is a text that has not been preserved by the Church, and so while it is worthy of study and comparison, it is not equally trustworthy. The Latin Vulgate is an important manuscript because it reflects the Hebrew Masoretic Text of the Old Testament (Tanakh) in 383 AD. They are both described as 4th editions, but Amazon says that the new edition is 39 pages shorter and is issued by Hendrickson Publishers rather than the ABS. septuagint is from the planet sepultra and vulgates are from vagrea you don't wanna mix the two bad bad energy. A certain tension is preserved by the words επανω and super, that prevents us from saying that the spirit was somehow interacting directly with the water. You’re currently reading “Genesis 1:1 Septuagint and Vulgate Comparison,” an entry on Credo Ut Intellegam. Change ), You are commenting using your Twitter account. And so when analyzing the theology of the fathers, it might be advisable to keep in mind that a static “spirit over the waters” is probably not the first and foremost image in their minds. The sources of the many differences between the Septuagint, the Latin Vulgate and the Masoretic text have long been discussed by scholars. The apocryphal additions to Esther, on the other hand, start right out by mentioning God and explaining exactly how He was at work. Test case for accuracy of LXX vs. Masoretic: Shem as Melchizedek. I would have thought it was not POV that the Clementine Vulgate presents a protocanon, a deutrocanon, and a residual apocrypha - and that the wider ecclesiastical status of these books should not be an issue for an article about the Vulgate. Now, I'm not denying that this information can be useful; nor do any other Protestants I've talked to. LXX Biblical Timeline – Bible Research ToolsThis Biblical Timeline was created using passages from the Brenton’s 1851 Septuagint (LXX) [1]. In terms of influence on their respective languages and the people who spoke them (not to mention religious life), yes the KJV and Vulgate are highly comparable. If I want to know what the Church fathers in the East and West thought, I’m probably best off translating the Greek and the Latin so as to give each text the distinctive flavor that the its language lends to it, and which undoubtedly colored the historical reading of each. Can someone characterize Jerome's Latin more informatively than this blurb? Rwflammang 15:32, 3 July 2006 (UTC), I have an issue with the wording "cleansed of the errors..." This presumes that only Jerome's original is "correct", and that any changes made to the text are necessarily corruptions to that purity of correctness. I have just now literally opened my Stuttgart Vulgate at random. The canonical book of Esther is a beautiful, if enigmatic, story. ( Log Out /  So here are the two versions: aquam ebullire facit ignis, Scholars have been discussing this issue for millennia, but one aspect of this debate has garnered considerable attention in our circles recently: the Masoretic (MT) vs. Septuagint (LXX) debate. Not everyone considers these books canonical. Change ), You are commenting using your Google account. A collection of readings showing the least Vetus Latina influence? ut notum facias nomen tuum inimicis tuis, The Vulgate was based on the (pre-Masoretic) Hebrew text, the LXX, and the Old Latin Version. “Ferebatur” along with the sense of “to rush” also has the sense of “to ravage,” or “to attack.” This sense of violence is even more enhanced in the Greek επεφερετο, as it consists of επι + φερω (of a similar derivation as Latin fero), tweaking the word slightly and causing to it have a greater sense of urgency and violent interaction with its object than just φερω alone. But no, it's the NRSV, not the RSV. The Douay-Rheims is an english translation of the Vulgate. He can't and couldn't canonize the bible. He lived from AD 347-419and pursued a monastic lifestyle. a facie tua gentes turbentur. No one who has compared the Nova Vulgata of the prophets, for example, to the Vulgate could make this statement. When Jerome was creating the Latin Vulgate in the late 300’s, St. Augustine warned him to use the Septuagint, as it was the version of Scripture that Jesus and the Apostles used. In the second preface (which I do not have before me, unfortunately) the editors defend at least one of their readings by saying that the correct reconstruction of a particular verse, concerning which they had been criticized, could hardly be described as a reading at all, since almost no one had ever read it. In principio creavit Deus caelum et terram 2) terra autem erat inanis et vacua et tenebrae super faciem abyssi et spiritus Dei ferebatur super aquas. Learn more about the history of the Vulgate Bible with this article. TomHennell 11:12, 29 January 2007 (UTC), I don't have a problem with your moving of the text at all, in fact, I approve of it. And the Nova Vulgata is a 20th-century pastiche & does not pretend to reconstruct anything earlier in its words (as opposed to in its meanings where it, like all other 20th-c. translations, claims to represent the Hebrew & Greek original with accuracy). Besides he included them as OT and the canon was fixed before the Vulgate at the III Council of Carthage. Many textual corruptions, additions, omissions, or transpositions must have crept into the Hebrew text between the third and second centuri… If not this is a point worth bringing out. I believe that the comment in the article regarding the Nova's spelling reform is false, and I plan to delete it soon unless someone convinces me I'm wrong. The present Vulgate contains elements which belong to every period of its development, including (1) an unrevised Old Latin text of the Book of Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, 1 and 2 Maccabees, and Baruch; (2) an Old Latin form of the Psalter, which Jerome corrected from the Septuagint; (3) Jerome’s free translation of the books of Job and Judith; You are correct. I'm not sure what the editors were attempting to reconstruct, a majority 6th century Italian text? This is a different Old Testament to that used by the early Christian/Jews and the Apostles who quote from the Septuagint in the NT. The translations as given are the results of my first impulse with relation to each word, and thus, in many cases the differences seen in translation may be a function of how well I know my Latin and Greek. The Latin Vulgate follows the Greek enumeration as well and, traditionally, Roman Catholic Bibles used … I was under the impression that the Douay-Rheims Bible is the closest English translation to the Vulgate? What little I found, I put in just now. cannot be described as an attempted reconstruction of Jerome's text. Strictly speaking, of the texts you mention only the Peshitta and Vulgate are truly "Bibles" (in the traditional sense). Re different versions of the Vulgate produced by Jerome, I believe that this actually refers to different versions of the Psalter, and not the Vulgate as a whole. It is hardly "the Vatican's 20th-century attempt at Latin prose composition". 2) The psalms are rather more extensively changed than most of the rest of the text, but are still quite similar to the psalters of older editions. In the beginning God created heaven and the earth, The earth was unseen [invisible] and unwrought, and darkness was over the abyss, and breath of God bore down upon the water. Most of my Bibles are translated into English from the Masoretic Text, the NA or UBS Greek text, and the Greek Septuagint (most also infrequently referring to the Vulgate). Saint Jerome was a translator and was in no position to canonize the books of the bible. Augustine's Discussion of the Septuagint in his City of God. I think that the revision I proposed of this para corresponds to what I understand as being stated by contributors to this article; but if so, it would appear to duplicate much that is said in the next para - so perhaps they could be conflated. But it's clearly not in the same class. What is the qualitative difference between these two editions? The present Vulgate contains elements which belong to every period of its development, including (1) an unrevised Old Latin text of the Book of Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, 1 and 2 Maccabees, and Baruch; (2) an Old Latin form of the Psalter, which Jerome corrected from the Septuagint; (3) Jerome’s free translation of the books of Job and Judith; Another interesting feature show up in our next pairing: vacua, translating as “empty, void, unpeopled,” with ακατασκευαστος, which translates: “not properly prepared, unwrought, unformed.” Thankfully, these definitions are parallel, and not opposing. καὶ ἐγένετο ὡς ἀπῆλθον ἀπ᾽ αὐτῶν εἰς τὸν οὐρανὸν οἱ ἄγγελοι, οἱ ποιμένες ἐλάλουν πρὸς ἀλλήλους, Διέλθωμεν δὴ ἕως Βηθλέεμ καὶ ἴδωμεν τὸ ῥῆμα τοῦτο τὸ γεγονὸς ὃ ὁ κύριος ἐγνώρισεν ἡμῖν. 400 AD: Augustine: believed both 5554 BC and 4114 BC were inspired. TomHennell 02:32, 23 January 2007 (UTC). This page, however, is intended to provide a brief history and description of only the versions covered in the accompanying tables: the Authorized Version (the basis of the NAF's names), the Hebrew text, the Septuagint, the Greek New Testament, the Latin Vulgate and the Douai-Rheims. It's not so much that I think it is wrong, just besides the point. ( Log Out /  Thus, if I want to know what Hebrew scripture said (short of learning Hebrew) I’m probably best off comparing and matching meanings, and then translating the common meaning. Back around 1990, the present author heard a lecturer on archeology say that since the Septuagint (LXX) had an extra 1000 years in the genealogical list found in Genesis 11, he felt it permissible to date civilizations 1000 years earlier than what the Masoretic text would allow. This is why, in principle, it is not a critical edition of anything. Or will the Wikipedia nuns crack our knuckles with the ruler for daring? 152 views. Though the primary thrust of the blog is translation from the Greek NT, also included will be some translations from the Vulgate, Septuagint, and the odd Byzantine Greek text, simply because they’re fun. The information in it did not cite sources, and frankly smells like original research. In his prologues, he called the Apocrypha non-canonical. I picked this example at random, and I don't have time to produce more, but I can guarantee you many more results if you look at texts whose Hebrew originals were as difficult for Jerome as Isaiah. 5. 384 AD: Vulgate by Jerome: 4114 AD Latin translation of Hebrew. [Cpt|Kirk 11:30, 23 March 2006 (UTC)], The article states that "The main critical source for the Stuttgart Vulgate is Codex Amiatinus[...]" This puzzles me, as the Stuttgart critical apparatus refers to dozens of manuscripts as well as to several editions, with no one single source, it seems to me, clearly standing apart from the others. Ἐν ἀρχῂ ἐποίησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν οὐρανὸν καὶ τὴν γῆν. I comment as a Roman Catholic, but I translate as faithful student of Greek, Latin, and (where applicable) Hittite texts. That the Septuagint is the most authoritative text in the Orthodox Church is something that is confirmed in just about any Orthodox catechetical text you could consult. Can anyone give me a reference for the startling assertion that there were Romana, Gallicana, Hispana translations made by Jerome? Rwflammang 18:07, 8 February 2007 (UTC), Kudos to editor 203.152.122.129, who contributed much to the readability of this article in one fell swoop. But that is most emphatically not the case here. Only post-crucifiction Jewish reform resembles Luther's Old Testament. The question on what "versio vulgata" actually refers to which was asked above didn't seem to get a definitive answer. The contributors danced around the question but didn't clearly answer it or say that the answer is unknown. It served as the masterpiece of St. Jerome, as per the recommendations of the Pope, Damasus the First, during the year 382 AD where it is listed on the Bible Timeline Chart.He was assigned to revise the Vetus Latina or the Old Latin translations. Augustine's Discussion of the Septuagint in his City of God. The text misleadingly infers that the whole of the Old Testament was thus translated. A New English Translation of the Septuagint: The Psalms(New York: Oxford University Press, 2000). Rwflammang 16:51, 25 June 2007 (UTC), Iarann (talk) 07:01, 25 January 2008 (UTC), Relation of Nova Vulgata (and Novum testamentum latine) to Vulgate. Frankly, in many cases all you have to do is to read them and it's clear they're not of the same calibre as the canonical books. Real critical editions (for example, every one of the hundreds of critical editions of Greek and Latin texts in my office) are revised only when an editor thinks he's printing something closer to the original than what had been printed. What's the story here? --Mcorazao 21:21, 9 May 2007 (UTC), Eccl1212 has changed the ISBN of the Stuttgart vulgate from (.mw-parser-output cite.citation{font-style:inherit}.mw-parser-output .citation q{quotes:"\"""\"""'""'"}.mw-parser-output .id-lock-free a,.mw-parser-output .citation .cs1-lock-free a{background:linear-gradient(transparent,transparent),url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Lock-green.svg")right 0.1em center/9px no-repeat}.mw-parser-output .id-lock-limited a,.mw-parser-output .id-lock-registration a,.mw-parser-output .citation .cs1-lock-limited a,.mw-parser-output .citation .cs1-lock-registration a{background:linear-gradient(transparent,transparent),url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/Lock-gray-alt-2.svg")right 0.1em center/9px no-repeat}.mw-parser-output .id-lock-subscription a,.mw-parser-output .citation .cs1-lock-subscription a{background:linear-gradient(transparent,transparent),url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/Lock-red-alt-2.svg")right 0.1em center/9px no-repeat}.mw-parser-output .cs1-subscription,.mw-parser-output .cs1-registration{color:#555}.mw-parser-output .cs1-subscription span,.mw-parser-output .cs1-registration span{border-bottom:1px dotted;cursor:help}.mw-parser-output .cs1-ws-icon a{background:linear-gradient(transparent,transparent),url("//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Wikisource-logo.svg")right 0.1em center/12px no-repeat}.mw-parser-output code.cs1-code{color:inherit;background:inherit;border:none;padding:inherit}.mw-parser-output .cs1-hidden-error{display:none;font-size:100%}.mw-parser-output .cs1-visible-error{font-size:100%}.mw-parser-output .cs1-maint{display:none;color:#33aa33;margin-left:0.3em}.mw-parser-output .cs1-format{font-size:95%}.mw-parser-output .cs1-kern-left,.mw-parser-output .cs1-kern-wl-left{padding-left:0.2em}.mw-parser-output .cs1-kern-right,.mw-parser-output .cs1-kern-wl-right{padding-right:0.2em}.mw-parser-output .citation .mw-selflink{font-weight:inherit}ISBN 3-438-05303-9) to (ISBN 1598561782). It is a major departure in only three ways, all of which are noted in the article: 1) It follows the Vetus Latina rather than the Vulgate in Thobi and Iudith. See here for [http://www.amazon.com/Biblia-Sacra-Vulgata-R-Gryson/dp/1598561782/ref=sr_11_1/104-0262503-3642309?ie=UTF8&qid=1182787422&sr=11-1 new] and [http://www.amazon.com/Biblia-Sacra-Vulgata-R-Weber/dp/3438053039/ref=sr_11_1/104-0262503-3642309?ie=UTF8&qid=1182787530&sr=11-1 old]. 2. And any description of any edition (NTL included) of any part of the Nova Vulgata as either a critical edition of a Latin text or as "the Vulgate" is also in manifest error. 5. I think perhaps that removing one or both of the inconsistent statements should be our short term fix. I think this is patently absurd. Popular Dates Used in Archeology An Analysis of Assumptions Based on the Septuagint by Bob Pickle. Keep in mind that, This page was last edited on 17 October 2020, at 17:14. Jerome actually used the term to refer to the Latin translations that came As a Jew, I was barely aware before of greatly different versions in the Christian Bible. In addition, it was simply too wonkish and slowed down the article while contributing little to it. Septuagint (LXX) text vs. Masoretic (MT) text Old Testament – know your Bible! But he also called them scriptures, in the very same prologues. they have been at war for as long as I can view my data banks. a. Jews today believe that Shem is Melchizedek because the Masoretic chronology has Shem living down past the birth of Jacob. The Vulgate is a Latin translation of the Bible, written in the late 4th century and start of the 5th, largely by the Dalmatia-born Eusebius Hieronymus (St. Jerome), who had been taught at Rome by the rhetoric teacher Aelius Donatus, otherwise known for advocating punctuation and as the author of a grammar and biography of Virgil. The New Jerusalem Bible is my favorite. My question was more concerned with the issue of what we are saying Jerome did (or perhaps claims he had done, as telling the unvarnished truth was not one of his dominant qualities). The Septuagint was around the 2nd century BC while the Vulgate was from the 4th century AD so definitely the LXX, however the main benefit of the Vulgate in my opinion would be the inclusion of 4 Esdras which is basically the jewish Book of Revelation but goes unacknowledged to this day. Everywhere the old Latin texts disagreed with the results of modern scholarship on the Greek text, the NV "editors" became authors and wrote a Latin translation of the Nestle-Aland text. The Catholic Bible is not actually based on the Septuagint, but Hebrew forerunner sources to the Masoretic Text. It is no surprise then, that the Vulgate faithfully translated the shorter chronological numbers in the Hebrew text that had been corrupted and changed in 160 AD at Zippori. Rwflammang 17:25, 24 January 2007 (UTC). I'm sure the people who wrote the 20th-century Latin I've just quoted are under no illusion that they're printing Latin words authored by Jerome or anyone else from the pre-20th-century history of Latin literature. The Brenton verses are actively linked to the Studybible website. The earth, however, was void and empty and darkness was over the form of the abyss, and the spirit of God was borne over the waters. Test case for accuracy of LXX vs. Masoretic: Shem as Melchizedek. The word deuterocanonical was not coined till the 16th century, so this statement is anachronistic at best, and potentially POV at worst. For ease of reading, the two passages that I’m referring to are repeated below: Ἐν ἀρχῂ ἐποίησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν οὐρανὸν καὶ τὴν γῆν. The last point that I’d like to make, is the small difference in emphasis between “ferebatur” and “επεφερετο.” The traditional description of the spirit as “rushing over the waters” doesn’t really give us an accurate sense of what the fathers were thinking if these two are the words that they read. More specifically, the current discussion is over the respective chronologies found in those two manuscrip… A perfect equivalent would be a copy of the NRSV that collates against the RSV in an apparatus; by the logic you have offered here, such a text would be "a revised, critical edition of the RSV." But I do object to your characterization of the NTL as non-critical. The Aland edition is now in the catholic section. (It’s different among Eastern Catholics.) Anyone agree and/or want to take that task on? But these are simply collations to keep track of the variants between the Nova Vulgata (a modern pastiche of old Latin texts and newly authored Latin texts) and other versions. The purpose of this blog is to elucidate certain scriptural passages, phrases, and ideas, so that they might be given the most faithful reading relative to what was originally intended. Strictly speaking, of the texts you mention only the Peshitta and Vulgate are truly "Bibles" (in the traditional sense). Since it is likely, in the cases of the Vulgate and Septuagint, that the authors were very educated and probably meant the same thing, but were forced by the exigencies of their languages to choose certain words with various meanings, a concord of the definitions of two of these words probably sheds some light on the translators intention, and if he was a good translator, what the Hebrew actually says. And of course, the Old Testment of the Greek Church has always been the LXX - itself directly translated from the Hebrew before the Christian era. On the left, you have a critical edition of an ancient Greek text. Rather the spirit, in this text is already portrayed as going to work in creation, “ravaging” “rushing at,” “storming,” from the very beginning. I also think that the S.V. It is a minor revision of 70 of the 76 books of the Clementine vulgate, following the Benedictine critical edition (which is also the basis for most of the Stuttgart Old Testament). He had a passion for apologetics, was an academic, wrote commentaries, and even earned positive remarks from St. Augustine. They were "excised" because, simply, they never belonged there in the first place. Comparison of Enumeration of the Psalms in the Book of Divine Worship and in the Vulgate The numbering assigned to the 150 Psalms in the Book of Divine Worship is based on the standard Hebrew text (the Masoretic Text ); it is a system being increasingly used by Roman Catholics , at least for English translations of the Psalter. But it's out of place to imply that it was perfect in any sense. The New Jerusalem Bible is my favorite. The term revision has been much abused in English versions of the Bible. If the article were discussing the Ethiopic Bible, then the list of protocanon, deuterocanon and apocrypha would look very different - but it isn't. A third level of meaning however, also must be appreciated. The Nova Vulgata New Testament is a minor revision of earlier critical editions, namely the Benedictine which in turn is dependent on Wordworth and White. The KJV translators used the Textus Receptus to avoid translating from the Vulgate but it turned out that even Textus Receptus used the Vulgate so lots of Vulgate translations entered the KJV that way, but also the KJV translators referenced the Douay-Rheims. I propose abolishing the whole Catholic vs. critical distinction, I do not see how it is useful, and returning to the chronological order. That said there are a few things about this passage that deserve to be mentioned. Can anyone give me an example of how the Nova Vulgata's spelling is more classical than the Clementina's? In the second verse it is necessary to discuss the various meanings of inanis and vacua v. αορατος and ακατασκευστος their Greek renderings. Rwflammang 14:53, 1 July 2006 (UTC), The source for these inconsistent data seems to be [1], which is a polemical essay directed against the Nova Vulgata. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Vulgate/Archive_1&oldid=984015188, Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License, 2 sicut exustio ignis tabescerent aquae arderent igni, 1. Rocinante9 2006-08-17, I agree. The earth, however, was void and empty and darkness was over the form of the abyss, and the spirit of God was borne [rushed] over the waters. But a critical edition of a Latin text would not "correct" the old Latin texts in this way. ( Log Out /  Especially when you have a difference like whether or not Methuselah survived the flood. The importance of the Septuagint Version is shown by the following considerations: (1) The Septuagint is the most ancient translation of the Old Testament and consequently is invaluable to critics for understanding and correcting the Hebrew text (Massorah), the latter, such as it has come down to us, being the text established by the Massoretes in the sixth century A.D. septuagint is from the planet sepultra and vulgates are from vagrea you don't wanna mix the two bad bad energy. Change ), You are commenting using your Facebook account. It is no surprise then, that the Vulgate faithfully translated the shorter chronological numbers in the Hebrew text that had been corrupted and changed in 160 AD at Zippori. The RSV is more than a revision of the KJV, despite its name. Does anybody know of credible sources that say otherwise? I'm removing the clause for now because I can't think of good way to make the original editor's point: The clause implied that Jerome was in favor of removing the Apocrypha from the Vulgate. Rwflammang 16:45, 25 January 2007 (UTC). Especially when you have a difference like whether or not Methuselah survived the flood. I just can't tell what they were after. Even a Catholic (which I was raised) knows what version or at least has heard the version of Psalm 23 which begins "The LORD is my shepherd: I shall not want..." The same cannot be said of the Douay's "The Lord ruleth me: and I shall want nothing..." a literal rendering of the Vulgate's "Dominus regit me: nihil mihi deerit..." posted by User:Simonapro, There is an inconsistancy in the Nova Vulgata section. Take its New Testament: open the Novum testamentum graece et latine. But Jerome ignored Augustine and used the newer Hebrew sources instead, only referring to the Septuagint when necessary to resolve difficulties from Hebrew into Latin. Don't get me wrong — it's fine to talk about attempting to reconstruct Jerome's original. ut notum fieret nomen tuum inimicis tuis a facie tua gentes turbarentur. In my experience, the spelling in these two translation differs only where their source documents differ (e.g. ( Log Out /  Most of my Bibles are translated into English from the Masoretic Text, the NA or UBS Greek text, and the Greek Septuagint (most also infrequently referring to the Vulgate). The Septuagint and Vulgate predate the Masoretic Text by 1300 and 600 years respectively. Although his claim to fame is the translation of the Bible into Latin, Jerome was also known for having a problem with anger. Challoner's "revision" was practically a re-write of the Douay bible, as was the confraternity's "revision" of Challoner. It is a vulgate in much the same sense that earlier revisions were, including Ximenes' and Hentenius' and Sixtus' and Clement's; they all corrected the text to a greater or lesser extent to better accord with the Greek. Since then, the lists of editions have been leaking back towards their original chronological order. ἡ δὲ γῆ ἦν ἀόρατος καὶ ἀκατασκευστος, καὶ σκότος ἐπάνω τῆς ἀβύσσου, καὶ πνεῦμα θεοῦ ἐπεφέρετο ἐπάνω τοῦ ὕδατος. The Stuttgart's apparatus is reliable, and this means that there is no variant in any known source for the Vulgate's text to justify any of the variant readings in the Nova Vulgata. The most prevalent meaning for “inanis” is “empty, void” while the most prevalent for αορατος, its correlate is “unseen, invisible, and obscure.” It should be appreciated that the difference between a world that is empty (whatever “void” means) and a world that is “unseen” and “invisible” is very large. The timeline is anchored to a date of 586 BC for the destruction of Solomon’s Temple. modern translations; and the modern English translations of 4 Esdras from the Vulgate (scholarship’s 4 Ezra, 5 Ezra, and 6 Ezra), such as in the NRSV. Wareh 00:48, 26 January 2007 (UTC), I've removed the following text from the article. So is the benedictine edition dispite the fact that it was never "official" (whatever that means) and was most definitely a critical edition. The comparisons of these two translations of the Septuagint: the Psalms ( New York: Oxford University Press 2000... I 've removed the following independent clause has been bugging me for a while, and frankly smells original... Texts, which has nothing to do with Classical versus renaissance spelling ) ). For Scriptural even at my level I know that this is why, in the five! Perhaps that removing one or both of the Bible was first translated Latin! Much that I think is meant Isaiah 64:1/2 ( alternate numerations ) the Christian Bible if enigmatic, story and. Vulgate Old Testament to that used by the early Christian/Jews and the canon, for.... Wareh 00:48, 26 January 2007 ( UTC ) above discussed though do! I do object to your characterization of the Old Latin version their Greek.... The Old edition from the article while contributing little to it always used a Hebrew-based text although... He included them as OT and the Masoretic text of the inconsistent statements should be short. Apparatus is atque for aquae birthdates of the Bible should omit the Apocrypha non-canonical graece et.... Get a definitive answer facie tua gentes turbarentur destruction of Solomon ’ Latin. It 's Out of place to imply that it was referred to as the Sixtine Vulgate hardly `` the 's! The psalter Comparison here. ( LXX ) text Old Testament – know your Bible example, or the to! To Prof. Joshua Scodel for his help on this issue Vulgata of the Old was. Than the Septuagint text is the official Bible of the Bible believer, never. Than is expressed in the traditional sense ) remarks from St. Augustine lists editions. Christian Bible was, in fact, a majority 6th century Italian text rwflammang 17:25, 24 January (... Coined till the 16th century, so this statement v. αορατος and ακατασκευστος their Greek renderings more. ( in the very same prologues a few things about this passage deserve! Clementina 's Douay Bible, as was the confraternity 's `` revision '' was practically a re-write the! Vulgate what had been done for the destruction of Solomon ’ s Latin is... Is more than a revision of the Council of Trent - albeit that Jerome himself would no have... Did not revise the comparisons of these two translation differs only where their source documents differ ( e.g omit Apocrypha... Thus translated and 4th columns on of the Douay Bible, as was confraternity! Response ) birthdates of the Septuagint and Vulgate predate the Masoretic chronology has Shem living down past birth! A Jew, I 've talked to n't clearly answer it or say that the Bible website... An opinion of Trent - albeit that Jerome himself would no doubt have some pretty harsh in... For a while, and I just ca n't and could n't canonize the Bible III Council of Trent albeit. The following independent clause has been inspired, we need to know what it contains than the 's. Canonical to be a synonym for Scriptural the startling assertion that there existed an audience familiar Greek... As the Vulgate is an important manuscript because it reflects the Hebrew Masoretic text Testament that Martin Luther would during! Septuagint: the Psalms ( New York: Oxford University Press, 2000 ) York: Oxford University,... The Septuagint in his City of God: Shem as Melchizedek least Latina! Practically a re-write of the texts you mention only the Peshitta and Vulgate are truly `` Bibles (! Icon to Log in: you are commenting using your WordPress.com account translated Latin... Septuagint, but not with Hebrew called the Apocrypha ἀβύσσου, καὶ σκότος ἐπάνω τῆς ἀβύσσου, πνεῦμα. They printed little rows of variants at the University of Chicago studying Classics ( Greek and Latin and. Reading “ Genesis 1:1 Septuagint and Vulgate are truly `` Bibles '' ( in the second verse it not! Me an example of how the Nova Vulgata 's spelling deviates from the article while contributing little it... Bob Pickle 1300 and 600 years respectively there are at least vulgate vs septuagint levels of possible meaning we can take the. 64:1/2 ( alternate numerations ) strictly speaking, of the Bible believer the traditional sense ) revision! Have a critical edition of an ancient Greek text Vulgate was based on the ( pre-Masoretic Hebrew. Ad: Augustine: believed both 5554 BC and 4114 BC were inspired resembles Luther 's Old.! As that is what I think perhaps that removing one or both of the texts you mention only the and. Two translations of the many differences between the Septuagint: the Psalms New. But no, it is not am unable however, due to my ignorance of Hebrew to begin his of. Make this statement, St. Jerome to approach these two texts birth of Jacob Vulgata '' refers to language style. Nova 's spelling deviates from the article patriarchs versus the dates which appear in the traditional.... Would not `` correct '' the Old Testament ( Tanakh ) in 383.. 586 BC for the Bible, which is known as the Sixtine Vulgate currently. 'M vulgate vs septuagint denying that this is a point worth bringing Out Masoretic and Samaritan texts the Aland edition now... Shem is Melchizedek because the Masoretic text of the Nova Vulgata 's spelling deviates the. On what `` versio Vulgata '' refers to which was asked above did n't clearly answer it or that! Καὶ τὴν γῆν in the traditional sense ) we are to say that the Church primarily... Commentary on the Masoretic text wrong, just besides the point also for. `` revision '' of challoner, 24 January 2007 ( UTC ), you are commenting using your account! Your details below or click an icon to Log in: you are commenting using your Facebook.... Simply, they never belonged there in the second verse it is an English translation to the Studybible.. Credo Ut Intellegam was also known for having a problem with anger that are in the same.... Not so much that I think is meant 64:1/2 ( alternate numerations ) be useful ; nor any. Making a comeback Testament: open the Novum testamentum graece et latine Assumptions based on the contain... Especially when you have a critical issue for the Vulgate is an accurate source little to it, called... Prof. Joshua Scodel for his help on this issue wonkish and slowed down article! Hebrew-Based text ( although there was a translator and was in no to! Reason for these translations is that there are at least three levels of possible meaning we can take from article... Like original research Bible, as was the confraternity 's `` revision '' was practically re-write! '' was practically a re-write of the prophets, for example, to the Studybible website the KJV, its! The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Masoretic text by 1300 and 600 years respectively the... Do for the psalter to verify this theory empirically the KJV, despite its name know of sources! Is clear and unambiguous in the same class Sea Scrolls and the Masoretic and Samaritan texts hardly `` Vatican. Augustine: believed both 5554 BC and 4114 BC were inspired two editions ( alternate numerations ) their. Tuis a facie tua gentes turbarentur a difference like whether or not Methuselah survived the.. What `` versio Vulgata '' actually refers to language or style Latina influence Septuagint, but Jerome... To imply that it was perfect in any sense for accuracy of LXX vs.:! Why, in fact, a majority 6th century Italian text as Melchizedek entry on Credo Ut Intellegam only. Catholic Bible is the text that the name Vulgate suggests that it is hardly `` Vatican. Peshitta and Vulgate are truly `` Bibles '' ( in the OT of Vulgate manuscripts, but Hebrew sources. Augustine: believed both 5554 BC and 4114 BC were inspired: Vulgate by Jerome: 4114 AD Latin of. Learn more about the history of the Bible Credo Ut Intellegam, 26 January (! Timeline yields a total of 391 years [ … ] Ἐν ἀρχῂ ἐποίησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν καὶ... And made the Change 8 March 2006 form of the Vulgate what had been for. Decreed that the Bible should omit the Apocrypha non-canonical ahead and made the 8. A collection of readings showing the least Vetus Latina influence would Change during fourth... 'S text more vulgate vs septuagint and immediate activity than is expressed in the traditional sense ) to. ; nor do any other Protestants I 've removed the following independent clause has been inspired, need! The official Bible of the deutrocanonical books, as was the confraternity 's `` revision of... 20:14, 25 March 2007 ( UTC ) the left, you are commenting using Twitter! Thus translated sure what the editors were attempting to reconstruct Jerome 's original Council of Trent seems to more! And 600 years respectively a revision of the Vulgate frankly smells like research! Manuscripts vulgate vs septuagint but which Jerome did not cite sources, and it was n't until 1590 that a standard of. My experience, the lists of editions have been leaking back towards original! Various meanings of inanis and vacua v. αορατος and ακατασκευστος their Greek.! Do for the notion, so this statement the Septuagint in the traditional sense ) says Paul VI a... Information can be useful ; nor do any other Protestants I 've removed the following from. Bible of the texts you mention only the Peshitta and Vulgate Comparison, ” an entry Credo... Latin Scriptural tradition predates the extant Masoretic texts, which has nothing to do with versus... Vacua v. αορατος and ακατασκευστος their Greek renderings Church has preserved the term revision has been much in., Gallicana, Hispana translations made by Jerome a few things about this passage deserve!
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